Finding Unity in the Math Wars

@Ralph, YatharthROCK: Thanks for the discussion, and for being civil. It’s very easy to misinterpret statements online or take them out of context, so I appreciate it.

The points about the language are well-taken though – a few people have been confused by it [esp. since equation implies an equal sign somewhere]. I’ve rephrased it to “math relationship”.

@Cherae: Thanks!

@YatharthROCK: I turned on markdown but realize a lot of older comments were written without it in mind (and things like (]) don’t show up properly). However, you can use “i” tags if you like. I may turn on markdown eventually after auditing some previous comments [shuddering at the thought, it’s a lot].

I can’t speak for Khan Academy, having only learned of it from an educational specialist a few days ago. However, having seen the light come on for a child around similar concepts, it is crystal clear to me that there are alternative ways to teach and to learn. Because everyone learns differently, our society would benefit by embracing solutions that recognize this reality and allow our educational system to address the need.

Hi Lisa, thanks for the comment. I totally agree – there’s no reason we need to limit ourselves to one teaching style, any more than we limit our reading to one author.

Hi Kalid - I’ve enjoyed your articles here and this one really forced me to pause and consider what goes into the success of people like George Polya or Martin Gardner in explaining complicated ideas to “the uninitiated”, so to speak. To me it seems like their writing always shows a talent for approaching topics as stories to be told - faithfully, accurately, but also in a way that engages the reader’s sense of “setting”, “characters”, “plot development” and “resolution”.

And it makes sense that nudging a student/reader’s brain into listening-to-stories mode would help so much with comprehension and retention. Storytelling is universal: every known culture on the planet passes on stories. Stories engage both the language center and parts of the brain involved in predicting other people’s actions. For thousands of years they’ve been a focus of social activity; people bond over anecdotes. They capture a sense of raw possibility (leading to what-ifs, branching story arcs, alternate endings, prologues, etc.) by building language structures that map to events so that the listener can come to grips with different possibilities by shuffling those structures around, composing the pieces together in a potentially huge number of different ways.

Well, we do an extremely similar thing in mathematics, don’t we? Choose a setting for the story: draw assumptions from observations of something we want to model, or from results whose stories we’ve already told. Cast and develop the characters: which lemmas, principles, intuitions, conjectures and solid, long-standing theorems will get involved? Carry the plot forward: describe how each step follows from the last, how the interplay between characters unfolds, letting the reader fill in routine details or ones that are more fun to imagine independently of the writer. Conclude: lead to the consequence(s) of what was assumed at the start.

I think it would be very worthwhile, at least in some areas of teaching, to approach mathematics as a giant, still-unfolding story to be told.

For instance, there are so many ways to tell the story of calculus and I wish one of them in particular could be known to high school students. To roughly outline what I mean: At first we had the set {0,1} where multiplying any two of its elements results in something that belongs to the set (it’s closed under multiplication). And that’s nice because x*y = 1 if and only if x = 1 and y = 1, so treating 1 as “true” and 0 as “false” we can capture the notion of logical “and” as multiplication. There’s another operation, addition, that allows us to count one thing. We can say x + y = 1 if either x or y is 1… but 1 + 1 doesn’t belong to this set so the idea comes up that we’d like to give names to expressions like 1 + 1 + … + 1 and write calculations in terms of those names. Closing {0,1} under the operation of addition we get the set ℕ = {0,1,2,3,…} of natural numbers where 2 is the name of 1 + 1, 3 is the name of 1 + 1 + 1 and so on.

Now ℕ is a nice set because it’s closed under both multiplication and addition - so that gives plenty of useful ways to think about whole number quantities of things. Of course, annoyingly enough, 1 - 2 doesn’t belong to ℕ and so we end up wanting to close ℕ under the subtraction operation to get ℤ = {…,-2,-1,0,1,2,…}, the set of all integers. (Where -1 is a name for {0 - 1, 1 - 2, 2 - 3, …}, -2 is a name for {0 - 2, 1 - 3, 2 - 4 …}, 1 is now considered a name for {1 - 0, 2 - 1, 3 - 2, …}, etc.) The integers serve us well, until whole numbers aren’t enough for our purposes and we want to chop up quantities very finely so that we can use arithmetic to say things about small pieces adding up to whole pieces. So we make ℚ, the set of rational numbers, out of ℤ in a way similar to how we made ℤ out of ℕ: say two ‘pairs’ of integers are considered to be the same element of ℚ if they represent the same fraction, so for example 1/2 is a name for {1/2, 2/4, 3/6, …}. The rational numbers serve us even better than the integers because they give us a lot of control over how large or small our quantities are.

Is it enough to close ℤ under division? For many purposes, sure, but now that we’re dealing with such fine-grained numbers we’ve become interested in challenges like calculating the slope of a curve at a point. But it’s not hard to draw a curve which has slope √2 at one of its points, and √2 can’t be written as a fraction! We can get as many rational numbers as we like, each one closer to the “instantaneous slope” than the number coming before it, by drawing better and better secant lines - expressing the slope as the limit operation applied to a sequence of rational numbers. Then to calculate with numbers like √2, we need the real numbers ℝ to be closed under the operation of taking a limit.


There could be so much to gain from collecting good learning references and having them (along with comments, questions, notes and such) laid out in a format where they naturally “branch off” from the appropriate conceptual story arcs. I wish something like that already existed (seriously, the internet has already been around for how long now?) and would love to contribute what I could.

I use both KA and betterexplained. Stumbled upon betterexplained first before a friend told me about KA. I just wanna say that even though betterexplained doesn’t come close to the amount of output KA has, I understand Kalid far more than I do on KA.

This is in spite of KA using videos, which is supposed to be a better medium. I just feel like Kalid makes that extra effort with the intuition. Just look at the length of each article and the effort he puts in (with diagrams and all).

Still I like both and a very noble effort by both you guys. Much respect to both of you. Not gonna diss Justin Bieber or Nicki Minaj or whatever. Entertainers are there to entertain, teachers are there to teach. If people like them then so be it, nothing wrong with that.

Hi Tim, really appreciate the note. I totally agree: we need concepts alive in our minds, or else we’re fooling ourselves about what we’ve really learned. Thanks for the support :).

Too many comments to read through in order to check if the following point has been made. Sure, music videos have a lot more views than online maths tutorials, but one doesn’t spend 2 hours in school every day watching music videos.

@NotSoFast

The problem I have with that is that… different people learn differently. For some people, Khan Academy does work. If it doesn’t, they can use something else.

This is what some people (not necessarily yourself) don’t seem to understand. They speak of “real learning” and say that KA isn’t helpful. That depends entirely on the person. There is no one-size-fits-all solution, and in fact, that’s why I sort of disagree with the part of this article where he said that ‘good’ teachers are better than using resources (such as a computer) to self-educate. Depends on the person.

Hey, I’m a senior in high-school and I just discovered this site. I have to say, I believe that the biggest bottleneck in education is communication! The intuition/insight you try to get at in your posts is “the” idea; when people understand it so well that they almost feel it. The way new content is introduced in school is horrible; every new idea should start with something extremely basic. I see many of my peers struggle with concepts only because the concepts have been communicated in this technical, contrived manner. With the worst teachers, you can see a disconnect between what they are teaching and how they are talking to the class. It makes everyone disinterested. Teachers are trying to relate it to the “real world” (“Let me give you a real world example,”) Math, science, education in general shouldn’t be something you have to “get through”. I believe, if you’re not interested in it - don’t learn it! The thing is, everyone should be interested in math, English, and learning in general. We tend to bundle things up into “subjects” and then assign people to certain subjects, such as the “math person” or the “artistic person”, when in reality math and english and science are all as close to the “real world” as you can get. The stuff taught in school is not some magical, quirky thing reserved for those who love little puzzles (“nerds”), or have some deep need to express themselves artistically. Everyone should enjoy learning all of the subjects on some level, because they are life itself; they don’t exist on a separate plane!
By the way, I realize I just babbled, but I couldn’t help but vent my views on education! Every thing else in the world is charging forward while education lags behind…

Me too! (I entered college and was slapped in the face by my freshman year math class.) Personnaly, as I overheard, "not the sharpest knife in the drawer, but certainly not the scissors’. I had the head of the math department for algebra (might even have been a remedial class). This guy would, with a flair, start with his left hand and finish with his right and fill the two front boards and the three side boards per class. I dumbed it!
Summer repeat I had a stubby cigar smoking personality who quipped QED, quite easily done and thumped his chalk out of the second floor window (last piece of chalk in the house and had to go find more). Made an A. The teacher can make all the difference. Had I had your site n-years ago I might have made the engineering cut.

I don’t know if anyone else mentioned this, but I believe TENURE is a very large contributor to bad teachers! When I was in law school I actually heard a professor boast to us (students) “go ahead and complain, I’m tunured.” These overpaid vermin have no place in an educational system, they are there simply for a check and the relative autonomy and prestige that comes with being a “college professor.” This is, imho, a primary reason why this country (US) has such serious issues with STEM education; and lack of a workforce with the necessary skills for modern business. This has been going on for a long long time, this country’s tenure system needs a serious overhaul; otherwise we continue down the same sad road.

Hi, love the philosophy behind your site, I have a 7 year old, and been part of his math development. At that age (and younger) if you can’t explain at the intuitive level, they are not going to get it! So, a really good discipline for me! I have no choice but to go about it from the intuition/story-telling angle. I’d love to see you tackle elementary math, too. Maybe when you have your own kids, hey. :wink:

I hated math at school (an all too common experience, sadly) but they way I’m doing it with my kid, I’ve learned to like it, a lot. Math is his favourite thing, and it has become my favourite subject to do with him as a result (I am an English literature major). I do live in the fear though, of what you say, one bad math experience can undo years of good. :frowning: I am wondering if it is too much to ask that an elementary school teacher, who is a generalist, can manage to teach math in an engaging way? I know your site usually attracts people who are at a more advanced level of math, but it nags me that at the elementary level, kids are not getting the sensitive handling required to cultivate the right attitude toward math - a curious, exploratory, experimental experience rather than rote learning. If we “lose” these kids even before they hit third grade, what then of the future of math in our country?

I am a 69 year old who struggled with calculus at school. I was utterly mystified, and was set to drawing conic sections because I liked drawing! Ever since then, I have had a hankering to understand calculus. Your website has encouraged me to set out on this exploration. Like you I have a poor memory, but once I understand something I know I can always retrieve that insight. Along the way, I like many of the things you have said- in particular:" Understanding is shown by the questions we ask, not the tests we pass." Long may you continue to each!

So how are you dealing with unintentionally-misformatted comments during this migration?

I see Markdown is turned on, with some extras like stuff wrapped in underscores and double quotes being converted into a blockquote (which I think is absolutely misleading: inline elements shouldn’t be converted into block ones).

Great question :). I think there’s going to be a manual cleanup process to fix up some of the older comments which are likely to be misformatted. (As they get pointed out, I can run queries on the content to see if there are others like it.)

Discourse should hopefully make this easier since comments can be flagged to be looked at.

Don’t get it why there’s a war b/w KA and BE.
Articles here are too good… but people who want to learn all the way from basics can surf KA.
There can’t be a comparison b/w 2 sites whose approach are completely different.
For comparing, comparison can be done with Brilliant.org. Where a lot of higher math is going on (with articles) and community posted questions